21 people says things!

1. I totally believe in freedom. Who cares what people do with your commercial application as long as some things are clear:

   1) it’s not ‘official’
   2) it’s unsupported
   3) people have paid for their licenses

   Whatever you release, people are bound to go and mess around with it. I’d say let it go. It’s part of the success of the product.

   Just my 5 cents.

   By Marco on February 7, 2006 3:59 pm

2. To write an application in PHP and tell people not to mess with it is like giving a twinkie to Rosie O’Donnell and… well, you get it.

   I say any modification short of pirating the software itself should be kosher, especially if the person/company purchased the software.

   In fact, I’m tempted myself now.

   By Pat Collins on February 7, 2006 4:16 pm

3. Having seen the theme, I’m not sure why it would be such a big deal. I mean, usually nobody but the site owner sees the installation of Mint. It wouldn’t be promoting pirating, and isn’t all that different from pepper developers. But, in the end it’s Shaun’s call, and we gotta respect that.

   By Nathan Smith on February 7, 2006 4:18 pm

4. I’ve spoken with Jason Fried about the ability to add custom CSS files to Basecamp and whatnot, and typically the response is that it would be cool, however supporting it would be a bitch. One misplaced } and the entire CSS file is bunked up, and the design is unusable.

   If you let newbies write their own CSS for applications, than some things might go awry. I think that Shaun is trying to prevent that, cause everybody knows that people loading custom styles into Mint would still harass him for support issues ;)

   That being said, I think an amicable solution could be found here. Just like people can write Pepper modules to add-on, maybe a custom Pepper module could be written that loads up CSS and checks its validity prior to showing it… just as an added precaution.

   By Mike Rundle on February 7, 2006 4:21 pm

5. As I mentioned to Paul, I have no problem with people modifying the Mint CSS for their own use. What I do have a problem with is, if that code was released publicly, having to support the modified code.

   As a developer you can shout from the rooftops that modified files and third-party hacks will not be supported but there will always be those who choose not to hear this disclaimer. You’d be amazed by the number of requests I get to troubleshoot the WP-ShortStat plug-in and third-party Pepper. Despite the disclaimers, if I want to do the right thing, I still need to reply to the confused user and inform them that I’m not responsible for the code they are having an issue with. This takes time and interrupts other tasks including supporting other customers with legit issues and further developing the product.

   In this particular case the “theme” was the default Mint style in an arbitrary blue instead of green. Mint is green. The color mint, is green. Would you be more sensitive to color consistency if 9rules was instead RedRules?

   By Shaun Inman on February 7, 2006 6:18 pm

6. Shaun, while I understand your theory, how long does it take to copy and paste a canned response for unsuportted 3rd party products? I’m guessing 1 minute at the extremely far end of the spectrum.

   I think that allowing your products to be customized helps it. It’s free marketing for your product, and ya know… some people just don’t like green. No amount of design will change that, there are those out there that just hate it. And with a program like mint that you use on a daily basis, it just might be nice to have it one of the colors you prefer.

   By Kyle on February 7, 2006 8:09 pm

7. I agree with those that say it should be modifiable. If you get contacted asking about unsupported issues, just ignore them.

   Eventually people will get the idea and stop bothering you.

   I use Mint, don’t mind the layout or colour scheme, but the option to change it (or download css styles) would be welcomed.

   By Keith McLaughlin on February 7, 2006 10:02 pm

8. I agree with Shaun on this one. I have not used Mint so I cannot speak from experience, but I have visited the website (great design by the way) and it’s easy to see that green is very important to the Mint brand.

   By Brandon on February 7, 2006 11:24 pm

9. I think Shaun is right in cautioning his users against hacking apart the CSS (or the application itself). While aesthetics, design, etc. are a big part of the Mint brand, so is all the customer service that Shaun provides. Having to compromise either one of those would be a step in the wrong direction.

   Allowing members to have fun with the 9rules logo would be equivalent to Shaun letting people go crazy and make all sorts of ‘Powered by Mint’ buttons. (which is great if you’re the sort of person that likes making buttons)

   By Jack on February 7, 2006 11:52 pm

10. I personally think Shaun is right. I know making things custom is one of those things people do all the time. However, if the product was designed for this ie; in the case of phpbb or wordpress - that is part of the product. If the application was not designed for it or there are branding reasons behind it then that is fair enough. Ultimately it is up to the developer(s) and really if you don’t like the fact you can’t skin it then maybe don’t use it. I use mint and personally, the branding is a part of it for me. I however, like the branding and therefore this might be a reason I don’t see point for me to change. The drawing on the 9rules logo as a case is a good one too.
    If you times the amount of time that it would take to cut and paste the (estimating) lot of emails Shaun probably gets like any developer, then I think his comments are fair. I have worked on projects that once released people make a bee line for the css. This is fine if they know what they are doing and I guess that the few that do are being lumped with the few that don’t. However, if they don’t all hell and a } breaks loose. This is usually the case. The amount of times that someone will contact the developer for support only to reveal after days of frustration where it just plain won’t work, that they edited something or customed something. I have experienced this myself.

    By karmatosed on February 8, 2006 3:46 am

11. I’ve never heard of Mint before today, but if you’re taking another poll, I would have to agree with Kyle #6. I’m not a designer, nor am I a developer, but I am a consultant which often involves the development or certain methods and techniques and yes, even ‘canned’ design templates at times to provide services.

    Shaun mentioned in #5 about the time aspect spent .. that he still needs to reply to the confused user and ….. This takes time and interrupts other tasks including supporting other customers with legit issues and further developing the product

    What about the paying customers with flawless installations and who never take up any of his time because they don’t make changes, or play with the CSS, and everything works properly? Tell me that’s not factored into the price. If he’s doing so much after-sales service, maybe he should give the product away, and charge for the support? Then even people like me would already know about this product - Just a thought.

    By HART (1-800-HART) on February 8, 2006 5:36 am

12. I absolutely disagree with Hart’s comment on this post! And I absolutely side with Shaun on this one.

    I think Shaun made a very good point when he asked the question: “Would you be more sensitive to color consistency if 9rules was instead RedRules?”

    It’s a pretty simple question! And I think someone would be stupid to answer “No, I don’t really care…” Branding is incredibly important to the success of any product or service. And I think Shaun’s done an incredible job of branding Mint! Why mess with a good thing?

    Also note that he didn’t ever say that you couldn’t, he just respectfully asked that you don’t. Doing so doesn’t do you any harm, but it could cause him to spend more time on customer support that isn’t necessary - nor his problem, to put it simply.

    And to retort Hart’s comment: The price of Mint as it stands is justified by the beautiful performance of the product itself - both in form and function. Of course support is factored in! But I would pay the $30 a domain (and I have twice) simply for the product itself without any direct support besides the forum or the site. So if you’re too cheap to fork over $30 for a beautiful product that works fantastic and looks great too, don’t jump on Shaun’s case for not giving away Mint (which I have no doubt took an incredible amount of personal time and resources to develop) away for free and charging for support.

    By Daniel Scrivner on February 8, 2006 6:31 am

13. I agree with Shaun and Daniel. I have two domains with Mint and it was designed well. Not only from an look/feel standpoint but, more importantly, a user interface standpoint. The app works well, and looks great.

    As far as WordPress goes…it NEEDS customization of design, mostly due to the fact that the default installation looks like shit. The purpose of WordPress is completely different from Mint as well.

    I think of Mint more as an app with a polished user interface…mint is customizable where it should be - pane locations, peppers, etc.

    While I do agree that apps built in easily adpated languages such as PHP with CSS are bound to be modified, it’s apparent with Mint that Shaun put time into brand and functionality. If it ain’t broke…

    By Rich Leland on February 8, 2006 9:07 am

14. Shaun, I feel your pain. The person who said it only takes a minute to copy/paste something doesn’t really understand good customer service. When a user of your software is having an issue it becomes your responsibility to offer some sort of solution, even if that solution is “ask the developer”. At least, if you want a happy, loyal, repeat customer it does.

    I think for small companies its even more painful since the tech support people and the developer tend to be the same people. While this has a number of benefits having a constant stream of 3rd party related questions can impact the development cycle if not handled carefully.

    Imagine that you are in a studio overlooking a beautiful lake. You are attempting to paint that lake. It takes careful concentration and though to artistically translate that onto the canvus.

    Now imagine that every 15 minutes someone comes and stands right in front of your view, interrupting your concentration, and then asks you a question about french fries. Suddenly a painting that should have taken four hours takes 16 hours even though the interpruptions only take 1 minute to take care of. Switching mindsets from programming to tech support is a time consuming process. Shaun is absolutely right on this point.

    However, the hassle is worth it and there are good ways to deal with it. It takes time and effort, but the outcome is usually an active, happy developer community that will sell a lot more licenses for you than a dedicated sales force ever could. This ends up benefiting everybody involved even if it does eat into the bottom line short term. The long-term effort pays off if its handled in a constructive way for the community. At least, that’s been our experience with ExpressionEngine and our very active, vocal, and wonderful developer community.

    It takes a lot of time, effort, and planning to do it right though so I think that Shaun’s cautiousness is very warranted. I’m also sure he’ll come up with a great solution. He hasn’t gone wrong yet, its doubtful he will now.

    By Leslie on February 8, 2006 12:02 pm

15. I don’t see what the problem is. Shaun can just keep concentrating on his orginal style and the code. If someone makes their own theme and offers it to others then it becomes their responsibility to update it when changes are made.

    By Ben on February 8, 2006 12:44 pm

16. A lot of software applications do allow people to update the look & feel of their application, and still continue to support it, but they generally have to pay for the “unbranded” version…which is generally quite a bit more expensive.
    Though, if I were in Shaun’s shoes, id offer a couple (more expensive) different color schemes that still maintained the Mint look and feel. It might divert a few people from hacking around, and it would put a couple extra dollars in his pocket.

    By Kyle Posey on February 8, 2006 12:55 pm

17. I think Shaun has the right to protect the branding and integrity of his application. If someone wants to ugly it up, no one can stop them but that doesn’t make it right.

    By Jared Christensen on February 8, 2006 2:08 pm

18. Yeah, mint is green, but my client’s website isn’t. You see where this is going?

    By Fred Simmons on February 8, 2006 5:27 pm

19. Interesting read. If you build a web application you have to design an efficient architecture so whenever you upgrade or modify your web application you don’t have to change a lot of it.

    You can make modifications to the code without borking the design, if the code and design are seperate there shouldn’t really be a problem. Although, it’s how the developer has programmed his application.

    What I’m trying to say is that the developer decides whether he wants a user to make changes or not. For example, if you take a look at vBulletin and at Vanilla, vBulletin’s design can be easily amended whereas, Vanilla’s can not.

    If I personally had to design an application I would let users make the changes they want and I would design my application to work that way.

    By Prashant on February 9, 2006 4:52 pm

20. Wow, that’s amazing. I didn’t know about this blog until SHaun pointed out his comment above in answer to my own question about the CSS. A few people have asked about my black/gray mod and I thought about sending them the file, but being a copyright freak I am, I can’t see doing something like that without permission from the orignal author because, well, I’d tear you apart if you ever did that with my CSS! That said, I’m not at all bothered by Shaun’s response. In fact, I think Prashant has a point about leaving code untouched. Isn’t that what we read in all those Terms and Conditions when installing any software? Okay, maybe we just skim it, but in the case of Mint, I think we should each be allowed to modify THE COLORS of our PRIVATELY VIEWED admin area, but releasing those changes to the public is totally different. Thanks, Shaun, for your message - loud and clear.

    By Natalie Jost on August 17, 2006 1:25 pm

21. Personally, I am thinking that my own Mint needs a spruce up. And I would think that there would be no problem distributing a .css file for Mint considering Mr. Inman has input a setting in Mint where you can publicly flaunt your stats.

    By Kyle Korleski on December 30, 2006 6:57 am

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